Dave Peniuk and Julie Broad from BC have been a part of the Canadian Personal Finance blog scene for about a year now, posting regularly and doing guest posts on real estate topics. In addition to their blog, they offer a newsletter, and I predicted to Mike quite a while ago that they would eventually start offering a course, and now they have (non-affiliate link). I offered to look at their course and provide feedback and a review, and as they were retooling their main course, they added me to their 12 month program (non-affiliate link).
The course sells for $397 or for $47 / month (delivered in weekly installments – this is what I’m receiving).
I’m closing in on the end of the first module (I *think* I am anyway), and thought I’d post my first thoughts.
High Level Overview
This course is targeted at the ultra-beginner who is trying to learn more about real estate. It is based on their experiences investing in real estate across Canada over the last 8 years, along with information they’ve gained from attending a number of gurus’ seminars and purchasing their products.
Things I Like
- I think Dave and Julie are fairly upfront about what they’re offering. I don’t personally like motivational material with my real estate information (if I have problems motivating myself, that’s a separate problem I need to deal with). A number of real estate books claim to be pure real esate info, then they have motivational filler. Julie and Dave are clear that this is part of what they’re offering.
- I do get the feeling that they’re sincere in what they’re offering, believe in the product, and feel this is valuable information to sell to beginner real estate investors.
- They acknowledge *SOME* myths (such as real estate always goes up or that it’s a good idea for finance real estate with credit cards). They offer a number of real experiences they had where things blew up in their faces, what the fallout was, and how they’d avoid a similar problem in the future.
- I think having an interactive course, delivered over the Internet that allows you to e-mail them for advice, complete, and receive feedback on, assignments they send (as Excel spreadsheets and whatnot, there are 4 in the course) and work through the material on your home computer. This is interesting and distinct from what others are doing (in person seminars, book store books, eBooks, etc).
- Julie and Dave’s material is very similar in tone and content to what they provide on their blog and their newsletter, which I think is excellent. They’re giving people a large sample of what they’re selling – if you like their blog / newsletter and are hungry for more of the same, you’ll like the course.
Things I’d Do Differently
- I find their marketing material a little bit too “infomercially” for my tastes, but given the amount of products sold this way, someone must like it.
- Their course ties together a number of elements, which I think people might be interested in purchasing individually instead of a bundle. I personally don’t need e-mail consultations or their 45 minute phone coaching (I assume this is their big expense with the course), but they don’t sell the material without this. I actually suggested to them that they sell a mentoring / coaching program separate from this (and apparently Dave liked the idea and Julie didn’t, so we’ll find out who wears the pants
). - I feel that they massively downplay risk. I made this criticism to Julie, and I think she felt it was fair, but explained that she didn’t want to scare readers into taking no action. To my mind, when you’re selling someone information, you have the obligation to be truthful and upfront to them, not deceive them in ways you think will help them. If a reader gets a honest understanding of the risks involved in real estate, then chooses another investment vehicle, that’s a valid decision for them to make for themselves. Tricking risk-adverse people into volatile situations doesn’t seem useful to me.
- I think Julie and Dave are very good at “cross promotions” and seem to be hooked up with a large number of people selling similar products. I wouldn’t be as good at this as them, so maybe I shouldn’t be making suggestions, but I think they might be well served to have some “mid-tier” products between the information they give away free and a fairly pricey book like this (maybe a stripped down version of this content, without the coaching and whatnot, for $30?). What do I know though, maybe this is the mid-tier or low-level product and they’re going to introduce something for $1,000’s.
Things I Don’t Like
- I found the “value for dollar” of the course to be VERY low so far. The weekly lessons can be quite short (one was 3 pages + a title page), which for $12 is very pricey to my mind. The content is very sparse and often is a superficial treatment of very complex matters (such as the differences between commercial and residential properties), or belabouring simple ideas (one week’s lesson amounted to “spend less than you earn”.
- There’s some reuse of material from their blog, newsletter and guest posts. I’ve read quite a bit of what they’ve written at their site and various blogs, and a number of the same anecdotes come up in the course. This is fine (and as I said above, I’m glad the course is similar to the “teaser” material they give away free), however this lowers the information density of what you’re buying further.
- I think they over-promise the benefit their course provides in a number of areas. In places they imply “We’ve made these mistakes, but will tell you how to avoid them all!” There are a number of problems in real estate that CAN’T be avoided. If you have enough tenants, eventually you’ll have some bad ones. No one can teach you how to perfectly screen! Sometimes good tenants will turn bad (a nice woman who hooks up with a deadbeat and lets him move in as an example). What process could possibly tell you in advance that’s going to happen? Knowing how to lower the chance of getting bad tenants, and how to deal with them when you inevitably get one, seems more worthwhile to me.
- I could be wrong on this point, but part of me wonders if Dave and Julie are trying to switch from making money through investing in real estate to making money helping other people invest in real estate. There’d be nothing wrong with them doing this (and in a lot of ways it’s very smart – it’s all upside with none of the liabilities of direct ownership). If this is what they’re doing however, I think they should be honest that this is what they’re all about. I’m basing this on them admitting they didn’t buy any real estate in 2008 (can’t find a link for this, please correct me if I’m wrong) and statements they’ve made implying they’re providing real estate investing information out of a love of teaching (when selling a book for $400 pretty clearly shows profit is your primary motivation). Again, there’s nothing at all wrong with profit being your motivation, but there IS a problem if you deny it’s your motivation when it is.
Overall I’ve found the “course” to be a generally decent, very beginner (VERY, VERY expensive) real estate book. I’d say it’s definitely better than “Rich Dad, Poor Dad”. I’d consider it to be comparable to Robert Allen’s books, Mike Butler’s “Landlording on Autopilot” or “The Automatic Millionaire Homeowner” by David Bach (I’d characterize these as useful introductions with SOME dangerous suggestions). I’d recommend Gary Eldred’s “The Beginner’s Guide to Real Estate Investing” or Retire Rich From Real Estate above this course to the target market (rank novices).
Given that I recommend two $15 books above this $400 course, the people I’d recommend this to would be people who are familiar with Dave and Julie’s writing or who want something more than a book. Read through their archives on their site, sign up for their newsletter, and if you LOVE what you read, and are willing to pay top dollar for a bit more, then buy this course.
If you desperately need your hand held, and just can’t get through your first real estate deal without having someone tell you it’ll be ok (I’d put myself in this category, I was VERY thankful to have a more experienced buddy to call on during my early days), it may be worth purchasing this for the contact with Dave and Julie. I think you’d be paying a VERY high premium for the material itself, but I think (hope) they’d do right by you. I’d contact them and see if you could just purchase e-mail help and / or regular phone calls if this is the situation you’re in.
If you HAVE to buy a multi-hundred (or thousand – eep!) dollar course, I think you could do A LOT worse than this one, but ultimately I think you’d do better educating yourself by reading books, digging into local laws and customs and trying to talk to people who have invested in deals similar to what you want to do.
If Julie and Dave don’t cut me off of future lessons after this review, I’ll post more details after I’ve seen more of the course .
{ 7 comments… read them below or add one }
I like your comment about the lessons being short and light – kind of like an ABC post…maybe I should charge $12 for one of those? (with no phone or email support!!). I like your suggestion of splitting off the mentoring component – maybe that’s really what they are selling with this course since all the other material is already available elsewhere (and maybe that’s what people are paying for?). The reality is that if you have to pay $400 to learn basic real estate investing info then you aren’t going to be successful at RE (or anything else for that matter)….
Mike: Well, to be fair, I don’t think *ALL* the material is available elsewhere (I’d guess about a 1/3rd of it is).
I definitely think that offering à la carte services is totally the way they should go (and use their blog, newsletter and a modestly priced book to demonstrate their expertise).
Wow – you were definitely much harder on our program than I expected and am very disappointed that this was your conclusion.
We have many happy students who really appreciate the fact that we’re taking the time to help them get over their fears. We don’t dive into the nitty gritty in module 1 because we’re laying the foundation for future modules.
We also have very happy students that really appreciate that we’re there for them. I email them back right away and address their specific concerns. Just today I worked through a mortgage situation with someone saving them hundreds each month, and I reviewed another student’s strategy and made suggestions for improvement that will likely result in them approaching real estate investing in a way that is manageable for their lifestyle. Dave spent several hours working with another student over the weekend as they placed an offer on a house with a basement suite. He saved them from a pretty big mistake and I know they would say that a $400 course for that kind of attention is a steal.
I would say that 25% of the course is content you can find in other places. But, that means 75% is new. And, once again, the big thing is that our course is a platform from which we coach beginner real estate investors. If you don’t want to interact with your teachers and you just want to read – buy a book. It would be cheaper and it will deliver on your desire to learn passively.
We aren’t looking for passive students. We want to them to take action. We want them to realize their dreams and achieve their goals. And to help them do that we’re really encouraging interactive learning – do the exercises and assignments, ask questions along the way, and actually try and do some deals. Students who do that say $47/month is dirt cheap.
The bulk of our income and our wealth comes from and will continue to come from real estate investing. I love to write, I love to teach and I love helping others and we love to share our experiences to help others but our business is investing. We didn’t buy anything in 2008 for a few reasons. The biggest reason was that we didn’t devote much time to searching for deals. We got married, Dave switched jobs, I left mine, and we started adventure racing which took up 20 hours a week in training time for 4+ months. It was a busy year. The second reason was that the few deals we did work on we didn’t go through with because we felt the risks were too high. And, that proved to be accurate. We’re really glad we didn’t do any of the deals we worked on in 2008.
You are welcome to carry on with the program, but I would challenge you to do more than just read it. Why don’t you put it into action? Don’t treat it like a book to review. Take it seriously … set yourself a real estate goal, send in your assignments, ask us questions and actually use the program to buy a property. Why would you spend your time reading our program if you don’t really want to use it?
Julie: I’m sorry you’re disappointed. I felt this was quite balanced, but I understand if you have a different perspective.
I mentioned three times in the review that the personal contact with you and Dave seems to be the biggest strength of the course (and Mike and I said the same thing in our comments). Given that the positives you point out are all examples of this personal contact as well, it seems you also agree. I didn’t say a single negative thing about it (I don’t know anything about it, and had assumed you were very helpful to students who e-mails or called – I’m glad to hear this is the case).
I stand by my suggestion (made to you by e-mail and in the review) that making this the focus of what you’re offering (and include the course material as an “add on” for people who purchase coaching / mentoring instead of the other way around) may be a good idea.
Unless I haven’t taken the message I was supposed to, I believe there are three action items in the first 5 lessons, all of which I’ve done.
1. Pick a goal.
2. Calculate your networth and cashflow.
3. Check your credit rating (I’ve done it before I started the course, both Canadian and American).
I would have e-mailed you / called if I didn’t understand something or had a specific question (I haven’t yet).
If I’ve missed some action I was supposed to take but didn’t, please let me know (and take this as feedback that any other action items should be made a little more clear
.
I *want* to use your program, but I haven’t got to an action item or suggestion that I haven’t already implemented yet (which *wasn’t* a criticism in my review because I realize a) the course targets beginners and b) I’m still in the first module).
I’m sure there will be ideas that are new to me, and I’m looking forward to getting to them!
Hello Cheap Canuck,
Dave here. Just wanted to add a few comments to what Julie replied to above regarding your review. While I think she summed up most of it, I am a little curious about some of your comments above, especially on your retort. Specifically:
1 – You mentioned that you have already Picked a goal. I can only assume that you actually put together a goal setting plan rather than directing us to your hope list for your next investment property when doing your PhD. When Julie suggests you take action, she means it. After reading your goal of buying a 3 or 4 bedroom townhouse, I also noted you have a lot of “hope’s” in your plan. Hope is not a plan, hope is a wish or a dream. If you are taking action (as you say you are) – develop a real goal setting strategy. This is what we strongly encourage our students to undertake and we do not consider this motivational, but rather it is necessary to be successful.
2 – By saying that we “massively downplay risk” and “tricking risk-adverse people” about the riskiness of real estate investing is almost laughable in my humble opinion. If we massively downplay risk, how much is risk downplayed from the Robert Allen’s of the world and their No Money Down techniques, or Russ Whitney’s who suggests you buy the crappiest, worst properties in the crime infested neighbourhoods because the “numbers look good”? All we have ever discussed in our 3 years and running newsletters, on our blog, and even throughout our “sales pitch” webpage is the many many challenges and difficulties of real estate investing. But, we also say that you can mitigate many of these risks with proper education and working with the right team. Again, I am calling you on your choice of words like “massively” and “tricking people” as I think this does Julie and I, and our Rev N You program a grave disservice. Did any of the financial planners out there warn some of my friends that they would lose over 50% of their portfolio in less than one year? No. Please be careful next time in the strength of your words.
3 – I think it’s far to early in your review of our course to start comparing it to other real estate books out there and whether you will learn more from other courses and other ways (talking to mentors, reading books, and digging into local laws) than taking ours. This is a 52 week course, you have received, I believe, 5 or 6 lessons? That’s like critiquing the full 7-course meal when you’ve only eaten the 1st course. Again, maybe on future reviews (for this and other programs/books) you might consider the length of your review should be proportionate to the length of the course you have received?
Hey Dave: Thanks for *YOUR* retort and the excellent points you raise. (truth be told, I consider mine a “response” more than a “retort”, but you let me pick the strength
onof my words, and I’ll let you pick the strength of yours…)1. My understanding of a goal is defined as “The purpose toward which an endeavor is directed; an objective.” The two posts I link to articulate very well (in my humble opinion) my long term and short term goals. I’m not sure what a “goal setting plan” or a “real goal setting strategy” are. Could you please direct me to their description and the rules for goals (such as, apparently, not including contingencies) in the lessons? I missed that (vital) portion, and haven’t been able to find it when I looked again.
2. “almost laughable” Well, I’m glad I almost got a laugh out of you! Laughing (or almost laughing) at the other person certainly is a near perfect way of proving your position (far better than facts or arguments). In spite of your derision, with your permission, I’ll take a shot at addressing your points.
“All we have ever discussed in our 3 years and running newsletters, on our blog, and even throughout our “sales pitch” webpage is the many many challenges and difficulties of real estate investing. But, we also say that you can mitigate many of these risks with proper education and working with the right team.”
Julie agreed with me that you had downplayed risk (I wouldn’t suggest laughing at her though – wives don’t tend to take that well). With Julie’s permission, I’m happy to post the section of our correspondences where she admits this.
Beyond YOUR CO-AUTHOR, in your ad copy (http://www.realestatemillionairecourse.com/Real-Estate-Millionaire-12-Month-Program.html) you promise:
“Instead of going through the trial and error process yourself – learn from our own experiences! (Whatever mistakes you’re afraid of making, we’ve probably made them already – so we can help you avoid them.)”
“The 5 ways to protect yourself from a bad property manager – follow our hard-won lessons, and you’ll never make the gigantic mistakes we did!”
From the lessons themselves, you write:
“You can, and we believe you WILL, create massive amounts of wealth through real estate investing. Set your goals, find properties that meet those goals with plenty of good research and then hold onto them for at least five years…preferably longer. It works…”
“you’ll never make the gigantic mistakes we did!” has a very different connotation than “you can mitigate many of these risks” as I’m sure you’ll agree (all laughing aside).
I’ve read at least some of your posts about one property manager you had problems with, and it definitely sounds like an ugly situation. Problems with PM aren’t rare (at all!), so you shouldn’t beat yourself up about it. Julie tells me that you continue to use PMs extensively, so I can guarantee that you’ll have problems again in the future (I’d put money on it). It’s unavoidable (like problems with tenants) given enough units and enough time.
I didn’t say anything about financial planners and couldn’t follow the point you were making there (sorry!)
“Please be careful next time in the strength of your words.” HEY! I thought we weren’t going to pick the strength of each other’s words!?!?
I stand by the content and strength of my words.
3. “I think it’s far to early in your review of our course to start comparing it to other real estate books out there and whether you will learn more from other courses and other ways (talking to mentors, reading books, and digging into local laws) than taking ours”
Just to be clear, I didn’t make any statement about where anyone will “learn more“. I did recommend two books above your course along along with self-education. I stand by this recommendation and am happy to explain the rationale. Part of any review I do is I like to detail who the product would be worthwhile for. Some products I think would be worthwhile for EVERYONE to be exposed to, some I don’t think anyone should be exposed to, and some (like yours) appeal to a specific audience. I identified THREE groups who I thought would find your product worthwhile. I recommended your book above “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” as I didn’t think RDPD was worthwhile at all, and I think there are some interesting, worthwhile ideas in your course (so without reading all 52 lessons I know you have SOMETHING of value, and I can recommend you over something I feel has NOTHING of value). I felt that Eldred’s book and Retire Rich had SMALL issues, which given that I think your product already has a BIG issue (namely, downplaying risk as discussed above), I can recommend their products above yours as they are providing basic real estate information without any DANGEROUS ideas. If the rest of your work is a perfect, wonderful introduction to real estate investing (with innovative and unique strategy clearly explained), it will still have the fundamental issue that you downplay risk (for students who aren’t sophisticated enough to recognize this and take action to protect themselves). I felt that the books I said were comparable to your course were similar: some worthwhile information, but with a couple of dangerous ideas that could get rookies into trouble if they believe them.
Perhaps in a latter review I’ll be happy to recommend your course to intermediate investors (and warn them to be careful about your suggestions about risk but to pay close attention to your treatment of XYZ). I hope this is the case!
I’m a big believer in self-education, as the person will hopefully keep digging until they’ve discovered the major pitfalls in front of them. For the same reason as recommending the books, I think this is worthwhile to (hopefully) get another perspective if a student gets a dangerous, bad idea in their head (such as underestimating the risks involved in real estate investing).
That’s a very interesting review.
I’ve been devouring everything I can about real estate investing (including their site) but was also very turned off by the infomercial-ness of their site. That instantly made me think there was another angle to what they were selling (even if there isn’t).
That’s how I perceived their site, even if the content has value. Kudos for actually posting your actual opinion of the site, even if involved hurting a few feelings.
I’ll still keep both your sites bookmarked for now