I enjoy blogging. Twice each week, I have the chance to spend a bit of time articulating my position on a financial topic, then get a variety of smart people to respond with their $0.02 on the subject. Sometimes there will be a bit of back and forth on the day of the posting (or for really inflammatory controversial posts for weeks or months afterward).
Often the best part of blogging (for the blogger) is that we choose what is being discussed (for our own posts at least). Discussion forums become far more democratic where anyone can start a topic they’re interested in, and if they can attract enough interest, pick other readers’ brains and get some alternative points of view on the issue.
Five places I’m aware of, and have participated in conversations at, are:
- Canadian Business Online: This is the grand-daddy and has been around forever. Forums are focused on topics from taxes to stock discussions, frugality to starting a business. Derek Foster will often interact with fans (and foes) here and whatever your question is, if it’s about finance someone can probably give you a decent answer or point you in the right direction. It’s been around FOREVER and is quite large, so it can be a bit overwhelming for newbies.
- Canadian Money Forum: I’m not 100% sure what their original motivation was for starting this (I would have guessed that running their successful blogs would have kept them busy enough), but the Canadian Capitalist and Million Dollar Journey started this up. It’s like the Pepsi to Canadian Business Online’s Coke: the choice of a new generation. Very similar discussions, but quite a bit more intimate. It gives a chance to interact directly with a number of bloggers as well as Canadian finance celebrities like Jon Chevreau.
- DRiP Investing Resource Center: This forum is focused almost entirely on dividend reinvestment plans, but because of its focus it provides AMAZING information. Basically anything you could possibly want to know about DRiPping is answered here. Although the site supports Canadian and American DRiPs, most of the people there seem to be focused on Canadian companies. They also facilitate stock exchanges between users (which allow investors to cut their investments fees down to almost nothing, although it’s more time consuming than using a broker). The veteran members are very knowledgeable about DRiPs (and willing to help), but have a tendency to be unpleasant to some rookies (and to be VERY set in their ways).
- My REIN Space Forums: The “Real Estate Investment Network” (R.E.I.N.) was set up by Don Cambell to sell real estate information and mentoring to aspiring real estate investors. I heard one of his speakers at a seminar one time (and met a number of members through other venues) and didn’t get a good feeling about the organization. The bulk of his talk amounted to generating goodwill by buying a turkey for his tenants at Christmas (wow). It has been recommended to me on a number of occasions by other people I’ve met, so SOME people must find it worthwhile. The forums have a public area, as well as a members-only area. While I haven’t participated or read posts here extensively, there seems to be some good info (and knowledgeable people) posting in the public areas, so this would be worth checking out if you’re interested in real estate info.
- It Sucks to be a Landlord in Ontario!: I just found this recently and I think it should be required reading for anyone who wants to get into real estate investing. Basically it’s a support group for Ontario landlords, where they swap war stories and complain about how skewed towards tenants the province’s laws are. It’s a great resource to give aspiring landlords a dose of reality (such as how little good giving your tenants a turkey will do). There’s a few threads where they start beating the war drum to begin advocating on behalf of the province’s landlords, but I suspect that won’t amount to much (they’ve got a pretty poor choice of a name if they want to go that route).
It should go without saying (but I’ll say it anyways) that these forums are filled with regular people who, although well-intentioned for the most part, are as likely as Mike or I to give you incorrect advice 
.
Where do you go online to chat about finances in a Canadian specific context? Any experience with these (good or bad)? Any suggestions for sites not mentioned?
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Discussion forums become far more democratic where anyone can start a topic they’re interested in, and if they can attract enough interest, pick other readers’ brains and get some alternative points of view on the issue.
This statement does not apply for the Canadian Money Forum, Mr. Cheap.
I am the person who discovered the analytical errors in the Old School Safe Withdrawal Rate Studies (these are the studies that financial planners use to tell us how to structure our retirement plans). There is no question at this point but that these studies do indeed get the numbers wrong. This has been confirmed by lots of subsequent research and by several big-name experts.
John Greaney, the author of one of the Old School studies, does not like it that people who participate at discussion boards and blogs at which I participate have been able to learn about the errors in the Old School studies and be provided the accurate numbers (I have provided a New School calculator at my web site — The Retirement Risk Evaluator). Greaney has engaged in a seven-year long Smear Campaign against me and anyone else who reports on these realities anywhere on the internet. Greaney’s Campaign of Terror has caused several boards to be totally shut down and it has caused several others to impose a ban on honest posting on safe withdrawal rates and related topics.
I would of course like to make it true. I am 100 percent confident that only a tiny percentage of those who participate there are aware of the ban. I have done lots of things to get the various bans lifted. I have spoken to the police here in Purcelliville, VA (there were numerous threats of physical violence made against those who dared to post honestly on the SWR matter at various times). I spoke with a special Virginia unit of the police department that specializes in internet crimes. I have spoken with the FBI. I have contacted several public interest groups with the thought of bringing a lawsuit against those who have waged or participated in or facilitated the Campaign of Terror against our boards and blog communities. I tried to get a group organized at the Money Blog Network to get united action taken against the internet predators who are behind all this.
I am confident that the owners of the Canadian Money Forum have done good things in their day. I have had positive dealings with several of them (including Schenkler and Greaney). Still, the reality is that the good things that you point out should apply re forums do not apply re the Canadian Money forum today.
How will this change?
It will change when all the people who believe that honest posting on investing topics should be permitted at investing boards insist (not ask!) that honest posting on investing topics be permitted at all investing boards and blogs. There are thousands of people in the Retire Early and Indexing discussion boards who have expressed a desire that honest posting be permitted. Not enough of them have spoken up in strong and firm and uncompromising terms to get the job done. The reality is that, so long as the majority tolerates the acts of internet predators, internet predators hold a veto over what can be said at our boards and blogs.
I want to see the Canadian Money Forum succeed. That’s the obvious point of this post. An investing board does not enhance its chances of long-term success by adopting as one of its first acts a ban on honest posting on retirement planning.
I understand that many find it unpleasant to hear about this matter. My view has always been that the way to put the unpleasantness behind us is for a few responsible people to work together to solve the problem. Looking the other way will never solve the problem. And the longer the problem remains unresolved, the more good and hard-working people (I am confident that this characterization applies to the people who started the Canadian Money Forum) get hurt. It is in the best interests of every one of us that this matter be addressed as quickly as possible. By the close of business today would be good, in my assessment.
Rob
I really like the Canadian Money Forum – lots of great discussion (despite the fact that Rob is not there).
I used to hang out a lot at the CB forums but not so much anymore.
Another great place is the Financial Webring Forum – incredible amounts of knowledge there.
http://www.financialwebring.org/forum/
despite the fact that Rob is not there
Thank you for that kindness, Mike.
Another great place is the Financial Webring Forum – incredible amounts of knowledge there.
I agree (I mentioned the Financial Webring Forum in my earlier comment). I had great times at the Financial Webring Forum and learned from some very smart people and made a few friends. I was banned from that forum because I posted honestly on safe withdrawal rates and other important investing topics. I miss both the people and the learning experiences I had come to enjoy.
Rob
Thanks for mentioning CMF guys! The motivation behind CMF was that readers were emailing me (and probably CC) about starting a forum, so we decided to give them what they wanted.
Rob, are you sure you’re not mixing up CMF with another forum? Norbert is not affiliated with CMF and I’m pretty sure you weren’t banned from it as I don’t recall you ever posting there.
Rob, are you sure you’re not mixing up CMF with another forum? Norbert is not affiliated with CMF and I’m pretty sure you weren’t banned from it as I don’t recall you ever posting there.
I have never posted there. I did attempt to register so that I would be able to post. I was told to await an e-mail that would require me to click on a link that would be provided to make the registration effective. I registered on the morning of April 6 (after reading about the forum at this blog). I had not yet received the e-mail when I saw a thread discussing the matter at the Goon Central board:
http://www.s152957355.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1239043591
Norbert Schenkler: “Rob’s newest target” (a link to the Canadian Money Forum followed).
Yip: I don’t find hocus in the member search function. Is he using an alias?
Norbert: He just hasn’t followed the link to confirm registration yet.
Rob: It’s creepy in the extreme to see you pointing people to the page about me before I receive the e-mail that I need to receive to activate (not that it would be all that much less creepy to see you doing something similar after I received the e-mail).
Norbert: Perhaps you should use your exceptional analytical skills to determine how this was even possible.
Here is a link to an earlier discussion of this matter held at this blog:
http://www.four-pillars.ca/2009/04/08/greatnexus-one-stop-blogforumagg-shopping-some-links/comment-page-1/#comment-12755
It would make me very happy to learn that this was all a mix-up, Million Dollar Journey. If that turned out to be the case, I would obviously and gladly take back all the words said above and make whatever efforts I am able to make to make your forum as successful as possible.
Since you are an owner there and you appear to be okay with the idea of me posting there, I will go over now and see if I can re-register. If it works out, I will come back here and put up a follow-up message saying that all worked fine and that I apologize for the words above and that I am grateful for your help in getting this sorted out.
Rob
Thanks for the mention guys. Like FT mentions, our motivation was readers asking us for a Forum. FT and I have been talking about this for close to a year before we decided to launch. We were very aware of the workload — it’s not as if I need to take on more work than I’ve already signed up for
@Rob Bennett: Million Dollar Journey and I run the Canadian Money Forum. It is entirely possible that you couldn’t sign up due to a glitch. The way to address a glitch is to contact us and we’d be glad to sort it out for you, as we have for many current members. It is unfortunate that you would jump to conclusions that the whole world is against you when there are far simpler explanations at hand. I mean “Campaign of Terror” & “threats of physical violence” & “internet predators”? Give me a break.
It is funny that you mention your views on withdrawal rates are being suppressed. We had a long discussion on precisely this topic on CMF:
http://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=96
I suggest you get your facts straight before making allegations that have no basis.
I love the Canadian Money Forum, MDJ and CC were the perfect blogs to come together to launch a site like this. Unfortunately I haven’t had much time to spend on there lately.
Thanks for pointing out the DRiP Investing Resource Center, I never knew about that one!
It is unfortunate that you would jump to conclusions that the whole world is against you when there are far simpler explanations at hand. I mean “Campaign of Terror” & “threats of physical violence” & “internet predators”? Give me a break.
Here is a link to an article at my site setting forth the text of an e-mail that I wrote to my congressman Rep. Frank Wolf:
http://www.passionsaving.com/internet-harassment.html
Here is an article that sets forth 101 snippets from my fellow community members at the Retire Early and Indexing discussion-board communities expressing a desire that honest posting on SWRs and related matters be permitted at those boards:
http://www.passionsaving.com/investing-discussion-boards.html
Here is a thread from just this week in which the Greaney Goons go into full attack mode at the Get Rich Slowly blog:
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/06/02/the-lazy-way-to-investment-success/
J.D. Roth is the owner of that blog. I have discussed the problem of defamation on the internet with J.D. in a number of e-mails and he has told me that he is strongly opposed to it. But you will see scores,/i> of instances of internet defamation on that thread. I asked J.D. to take action about the problem numerous times. No action has yet been taken.
Here’s a comment that J.D. put to the thread:
J.D. Roth: “There Is Nothing Here [the reference is to John Greaney’s Old School Safe Withdrawal Rate (SWR) Study Finding that the SWR Is Always 4% [ That Says a 4% Withdrawal Rate is Safe. Nothing. You’re Making This Stuff Up.” (Comment #331)
I think it would be fair to say that those words offer little comfort to the millions of retirees who were taken in by the demonstrably false claims advanced in the Old School studies, Canadian Capitalist.
Mel Lindauer (the co-author of “The Bogleheads Guide to Investing”) has a long record of employing threats of physical violence to keep posters at the Vanguard Diehards community in line. I didn’t start posting there until July 2005. But Pete Elm posted there long before that. Pete put a post to the Indexuniverse.com site saying that Mel had threatened physical violence on posters on numerous occasions. I personally saw Mel invite the Greaney Goons (who have indeed employed death threats to destroy boards that permitted honest posting for a time) to post there more often. Many community members there complained about this. I have e-mails in my file documenting my correspondence with both Motley Fool (re Greaney) and Morningstar (re Lindauer) in which I sought action on this problem at the time it was taking place.
I attempted this morning to re-register at the Canandian Money Forum. I received a message saying that the user name (“Rob Bennett”) and e-mail address are already in use. I asked that an e-mail be sent telling me the password associated with that e-mail address. If my registration is fixed, I will of course report here that I am grateful for the chance to be able to learn from others at the forum and do whatever little I can do to teach others there as well.
But please do not think that there will not be consequences if you elect to permit honest posting on safe withdrawal rates at that board. As you see from looking at the thread at the Goon Central board linked to above, the Greaney Goons follow developments re this matter on an hour-by-hour basis. If you elect to “cross” them by permitting honest posting on SWRs, I think it is fair to say that your forum will soon be in their cross-hairs.
There is an enormous volume of material backing up what I say here. It is possible that there was some sort of mix-up that explains why my first attempt at registration at your forum did not go through. There is zero chance that the seven-year Campaign of Terror against the Retire Early and Indexing discussion-board communities (and, in recent months, the Personal Finance Blogosphere) is a figment of my imagination. Figments of one person’s imagination do not leave a trail of hundreds of thousands of posts in the Post Archives of dozens of discussion board and blog communities.
I haven’t taken a look at your thread on SWRs. As soon as the registration takes effect, I will head over to the forum and do so. My first post will probably be to link people to the calculator at my site (“The Retirement Risk Evaluator”), the only analytically valid SWR calculator available on the internet today. Perhaps some of the people who congregate there will find some value in it.
But please do not think that that will not enrage the Greaney Goons. I have been trying to help my fellow community members despite the entrenched opposition to that idea on the part of these individuals for seven years now. I can pretty much guaranty you that they will soon be paying you a visit if they detect any sign of weakness in your willingness to administer the board in accordance with the published posting rules.
I think that it would be fair to say that there are many who came before you who did not take the Goon problem as seriously as it needs to be taken and have come to regret it in the time since. My goal is to work with you to make the forum the best forum it can be. I can assure you that the Greany Goons are pursuing a very different agenda and that they will take your words above as a sign that their tactics can win the day once again.
They respect strength. And nothing else.
Rob
“Although the site supports Canadian and American DRiPs, most of the people there seem to be focused on Canadian companies. ”
Good point. The reason behing this is that it is possible to initiate DRIPs directly from some US companies.
I just love “It Sucks to be a Landlord in Ontario!” I should start an affiliated site called “It’s also true in Quebec!”
Nice roundup of these sites. I think the Canadian Money Forum is off to a great start. I haven’t heard of the Ontario landlord site, though…. have to check it out for my future RE endeavours. I was also around the CB forums once or twice, maybe I didn’t like the format as much.
RE: DRiP Investing Resource Center
This site is a great source of information for anyone wanting to get into Dripping. What some newbies see as meanness is often that nobody steps up to sell them all the shares they want in the first couple of hours.
Another example of meanness is newbies asking for a share of a company that does not have a DRiP and/or SPP and being told to do some research. Newbies also sometimes ask basic questions and are directed to the FAQ instead of having the question answered in the forum for the 1000th time.
When reading the boards, remember that many of the people have known each other for years and what may look like a nasty comment is simply friendly bantering.
Mr. Cheap,
Thank you for noting the dripinvesting.org website.
I am somewhat taken aback by your comments:
The veteran members are very knowledgeable about DRiPs (and willing to help), but have a tendency to be unpleasant to some rookies (and to be VERY set in their ways).
This goes very much against the grain of what you said in the thread you were involved in.
I think the veterans here are similarly giving far more to the community than the typical member. I’ve been unbelievably impressed that there’s constantly a speedy response when someone requests a share of a company in the share exchange that doesn’t allow OCPs and a veteran over-and-over posts a link to the FAQ, the drip list, and asks them if they’re sure they want to buy that company. After responding a dozen times, I think it would be human nature to get hot under the collar and be abrupt with the newbies, and I think its awesome that the community remains so helpful and polite. Clearly all the old-timers have got the DRiPs they want set up, and they just show up here to help newbies, which is admirable.
Here is the entire thread for others to digest. You’ll note an incredible amount of time and expertise was given to you by the “old-timers”. Truth is newbies who contribute are very welcome at dripinvesting.org and we have virtually zero flame wars because we “pay-it-forward”.
http://dripinvesting.org/Boards/Read.asp?MID=96108&Thread=Yes
I suggest any difficulty you had was because you phrased questions before you had developed the vernacular the community was hearing/understanding from you.
Regards,
OB
OB: Yes, I absolutely said that. And my comment makes perfect sense, given the context of the paragraphs ABOVE AND BELOW IT (re-pasted for convenience below) . This is entirely “with the grain” of what I wrote in both places. Perhaps you aren’t familiar with the word pugnacious?
An incredible amount of time was given to me by the “old-timers” who misunderstood what I wrote and picked a fight with me over something that was in their heads. My original question was concisely (and accurately) answered in the first response (by rascal), and I thanked her. The remainder of the lengthy responses account for the pugnaciousness. I’m not sure why you expect me to be grateful for “an incredible amount of time and expertise” given to misunderstanding and attacking me (and for the record, I’m not – I felt like the whole exchange was a waste of my time, which is why I haven’t allowed it to happen again).
I have personally witnessed a fairly intense flame war on the exchange board (when the guy out West, whatever his name is, claimed his “friend” was using his e-mail account to try and sell shares for a higher courtesy fee), so I think “virtually zero” is overstating it a bit. I never said anything about flame wars (in either post), so I’m not sure why you feel that’s an important point.
I suspect you have a paternal feeling about your community and you might not be wholly objective about it.
That being said, as I posted in both place, I *AM* incredibly impressed by the accumulated resources on the site (the faqs, list of Canadian drips, overview of running a group buy and articles are all wonderful). I’m also grateful for the times the veterans are polite and helpful (like Rascal was for me), AND the times they’re rude and helpful (which is quite often as well – I’d rather be treated rudely by someone on the internet than pay top dollar to a broker, but other people may be less willing to make this compromise). Heck, I’m even willing to accept when they’re rude and unhelpful (but sorry, I’m *not* going to be grateful for it, and I’m happy to warn other people what they may encounter at dripinvesting.org).
If you don’t like the reputation your community is building, perhaps it’s time to reconsider its norms?
I’ve had nothing but good experiences with the non-veterans I’ve interacted with (mostly through share exchanges). One of them was a four-pillars reader who contacted me when he saw my name in the forums, which was a delightful surprise.
I certainly wouldn’t characterize an entire community from one interaction with it. My characterization here was based on my interactions at your site, and the *many* I’ve read in the exchange board (I read it and the beginner board faithfully, I’m just not interested in interacting with your community more than necessary).
I stand by my description of the community in this post (and posted on dripinvesting.org). I hope this clears up any misunderstandings of disparities you may have had between my two posts (and thanks for being so interested in what I’ve written that you asked for a clarification!). If you (and the other veterans) are interested in making some changes to how your present yourselves to new members, I’d be happy to make some suggestions how you can present yourselves less unpleasantly and less pugnaciously (and if you want to keep the unpleasant and pugnacious elements of your community, I respect that choice too – I can understand if you want to restrict your help to newbies “willing to work for it”).
—
Years ago I used to be a SysOp on a BBS. For those too young to remember, these were electronic communities before many people had access to the internet. SysOps (short for System Operators) would run the boards where people would chat (in a very similar manner as we’re doing here), download files and play games. SysOps contributed BY FAR the most to the community (installing software, dealing with maintenance issues, paying for the phone line) and because of this had a great deal of power in the community, which could sometimes make them a bit pugnacious.
I think the veterans here are similarly giving far more to the community than the typical member. I’ve been unbelievably impressed that there’s constantly a speedy response when someone requests a share of a company in the share exchange that doesn’t allow OCPs and a veteran over-and-over posts a link to the FAQ, the drip list, and asks them if they’re sure they want to buy that company. After responding a dozen times, I think it would be human nature to get hot under the collar and be abrupt with the newbies, and I think its awesome that the community remains so helpful and polite. Clearly all the old-timers have got the DRiPs they want set up, and they just show up here to help newbies, which is admirable.
That being said, I think the “SysOp pugnaciousnes” creeps in as well and that some people responding to me haven’t read what I actually posted, and are getting upset by what they imagine I’ve wrote rather than what I actually have. Every learner can decide what they’re willing to go through to learn: having their words and intentions misrepresented in a much smaller price than many pay in the pursuit of knowledge.
Mr. Cheap,
I have no desire to engage in an argument or be pugnacious with you. That said your statement just made:
I certainly wouldn’t characterize an entire community from one interaction with it.
and the statement in the original item:
The veteran members are very knowledgeable about DRiPs (and willing to help), but have a tendency to be unpleasant to some rookies (and to be VERY set in their ways).
are contradictory. You say “the veteran members” not “some members”. You clearly painted us all which is a disservice to those that took the time to help you.
The reputation of our community is sound. If you were/are not satisfied that is a matter of self reflection but I am quite satisfied the the vast, vast majority of our members are extremely happy.
I hope you will come back and visit and get to know the personalities of the majority of the old-timers who spend hours and hours helping people with no other reward than personal satisfaction rather than dismissing everyone out of hand. Possibly you might edit your statement instead of unfairly painting us all with a black brush because you had a bad experience. As written it is an insult to a lot of very generous people. If I were a newbie reading your statement above I’d be wary of visiting which I’m sure you’d know is a mistake. We help people learn to put more of their own money in their own pockets and we do it without compensation or charge as long as they agree to do the same for others. I’m hard pressed to think of any other financial website around that can say that.
Should I write this website off because of one bad impression? (rhetorical)
I would also like to point out that dripinvesting.org has an incredible amount of inside humour. Sometimes posts meant as humour are misunderstood by new readers.
I reiterate: Newbie is an honoured term at dripinvesting.org. Newbies are very welcome.
I look forward to your next positive contribution at the dripinvesting.org.
OB off soapbox
BTW and not wishing to beat a dead horse and to answer the question I think you were asking originally:
There are members who do spin out shares from existing accounts for $10 a pop.
However, we old-timers feel:
1. That is somewhat against the spirit of the site which is to not profit off of fellow members, but also (and possibly more important);
2. Spinning out shares for profit amounts to someone acting as an unlicensed broker. While we leave members to do as they wish on their own the old-timers do not wish to promote anything that might be illegal.
Therefore we encourage:
1. Straight trades
2. Group purchases where commissions are shared equally
3 Single trades. There is a $10 thank you for this but you get your $10 back when you pass to the next person, Therefore it is a zero-sum not for profit transaction. The $10 thank you truly started as a thank you paying for parking and lunch. In my own case people have often sent me Tim Horton’s Gift Cards.
Regardless, we are there to help people through hurdles. There will be hiccups. However, as a beacon website we do not encourage any activity that is outside accepted procedures.
Hope this finally answers your original question as I understood it.
OB
You are mistaken that these statements are contradictory. If you’re interested in understanding, please re-read my previous comment (and if you just want to believe what you believe, that’s fine too).
As I said, I stand by what I’ve written. If someone is insulted by it, perhaps they should reflect on how their behaviour affects others and if that’s how they wish to behave in the future. For example, I’m well aware that this post has pissed you off, and I’m ok with that. I realize that posts of this nature will aggravate people with a vested interest in only hearing positive comments about something they care about, but I feel honest appraisal to the masses is more valuable than pandering to individual egos.
I don’t know how I could have been more encouraging about people visiting your site (although I feel I would be doing them a disservice encouraging them to visit without warning them about the reception they may receive). If you look above, there’s a comment thanking me for pointing out your site.
I certainly encourage readers to view the thread you’ve linked to, and read through a couple dozen posts on the exchange board, to get a feel for the reception they may receive (it paints a very clear picture of the reception I received).
We help people learn to put more of their own money in their own pockets and we do it without compensation or charge as long as they agree to do the same for others.
We (and the bulk of other personal finance blogs) provide the same service (the majority of us don’t charge and our only compensation is ads and / or affiliate sales, the same as dripinvesting.org uses). We do this with NO obligation that our readers pay us or perform ANY service in return (if our readers never pass along anything they read here we’re fine with that).
I would say that this post (and my comments) are representative of what Four Pillars has to offer. If you enjoyed this post, please come back. If you didn’t, don’t. We don’t try (or expect) to be all things to all people. I strive to provide honest, upfront reviews of the books, courses and websites I write about here, and the readers who return are people who appreciate this. You aren’t the first to be upset by my frankness, but I feel my duty is to honestly report to our readers.
I am (and will continue to be) a part of dripinvesting.org. My involvement is based on the contract you make VERY CLEAR with participants (that in return for receiving shares & information participants “pay it forward” with the shares they receive). I have attempted to “pay it forward” with information, and it was made clear that my participation wasn’t welcome (and so it ended). Once I have the share portfolio I am assembling, I will pass singles along to others than depart.
My understanding was that I wasn’t welcome on dripinvesting (which is fine). We have had people come and comment here that we aren’t interested in having as part of the community (angry Realtors and people who are angry at Mike for mentioning pre-payments on mortgages are two notable examples). We make it clear to them they aren’t welcome (often by mocking them), and they usually pick up on this and leave. If driving people like me away *isn’t* your goal (again, it’s perfectly fine if it is), then the way you are currently operating is harming your site. I honestly encourage you (and the other veterans) to reflect on whether your “humour” is having a positive effect on your site or not. I’m not sure how you became “quite satisfied the the vast, vast majority of our members are extremely happy”. How are you measuring the vistors who come, are turned off by the behaviour of senior members and leave never to return? We haven’t been able to figure out a way to a clear picture of our number of regular readers (RSS feed numbers or number of visitors in the server logs both have limitations). This post seems to be quite a shock to you and I posted substantially the same feedback in your forums.
Again, really, really, really, you aren’t under ANY obligation to make everyone happy. If you take a dislike to people like me and want to tell us to buzz off (which is basically what your community did), that’s FINE. I’d be careful about assuming that everyone who comes to your site is delighted, thankful and think you’re the greatest group of people ever to be on the planet. Probably a larger number than you believe are people like me who appreciate the service you provide, but think you’re a bunch of dicks. I’m a computer guy, and many IRC channels and forums devoted to helping people with hardware and software problems are the same. They’re really nice to help out random people on the Internet, but the price they often charge is being rude to the people they help (and people are happy to pay this if it saves them from buying a support contract).
Perhaps that is “contradiction” you can’t get over, that people can be good (helpful) and bad (rude) at the same time. They can (and they are). In “Collapse” Jared Diamond talks about a tyrant (in Hati I believe, I don’t have a copy handy) that was a brutal dictator and a committed environmentalist. He talks about how people can’t get their head around him being so noble from one facet of his leadership, and so brutal from another.
I’m happy to exchange shares on your site (and accept the obligation to pass along the shares I acquire once my portfolio is complete), grateful to George L Smyth for setting it up, and to yourself, the moderators and the established members who answer questions. But you aren’t a group of people I’m particularly interested in spending time with, online or off.
OB: Thanks, that definitely does answer my original question (along with Rascal’s reply which would make an excellent point #3).
3. “It’s not quite that simple. When you transfer a share, you must get a signature guarantee from a bank and you must have a certificate issued to the new person. It is time consuming, can be labor intensive if the transfer is rejected, etc, and sometimes the value of your stock drops in the process.”
Which I read as “It’s not worth the PITA factor once you’ve done it a number of times”.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
You have not pissed me off I just feel your synopsis and replies do not represent reality.
I’ll leave it up to your readers to determine that for them selves.
OB
I’d like an opportunity to respond to some false comments directed at me by Rob Bennett above. I have a long history with Mr. Bennett, starting when he censored pointed questions I and others put to one of his confederates at the now defunct NoFeeBoards discussion forum. Bennett was stripped of his authority and banned by the forum’s owner for his abuse of power.
Nowadays powerless, Bennett is a troll of the first water. Paranoid and delusional, he infects discussion forums and blogs until the owners turf him for misbehaviour. The process generally takes weeks, sometimes months for owners who value free speech highly, but it is inevitable IMHO. Bennett will infect your site, turning any discussion even tangentially related to his own chosen monomania.
Allow me to rebut specifically just a few of Bennett’s lies. Most of what he’s written is twaddle but I’ll restrict myself to the outright falsehoods about me personally, just to keep things short.
Norbert Schenkler, a long-time supporter of the Campaign of Terror and a part owner of the Financial WebRing Forum, had me banned before I put up my first post.
This is laughable. My name is misspelled. I strenuously oppose Bennett’s Campaign of Terror. (He would have you believe that the Campaign of Terror is directed at him. Don’t be fooled.) I haven’t the authority to ban anyone from CMF. I have never communicated with anyone at CMF regarding Bennett (until now if they’re still reading).
I was banned from [FWF] because I posted honestly on safe withdrawal rates and other important investing topics.
Bennett was banned from FWF because he tried to do there what he tries to do everywhere: bend every conversation to his own personal project. Want a good example of what our moderators had to put up with? Look at this thread. Bennett goes on and on and on, at one point posting 14 times in a row on his favourite subject before anyone could get a word in edgewise. Look at the getrichslowly blog link that Bennett has made above: a 400+ comment thread almost half of which is Bennett moaning about his “persecutors”, while the actual discussion disappears and drowns.
Bennett occasionally blames me for his ban at FWF, another falsehood. Although I am a partner at the forum, I recused myself from that decision because of my history with him. The other partners banned him on the basis of just a few weeks of unrelenting nonsense and his demonstrated history of arson at Motley Fool, NFB, the Early Retirement Forum, and most seriously Morningstar.
Patience be with you all. You will need it. Like most bloggers, I value free speech very highly. Everyone’s free speech. When Bennett is in the room, he’ll be shouting loud enough to drown everyone else at the party out. None of you know it yet, but all of you will eventually reach the same conclusion: You have to throw him out for the good of the rest of the crowd.
Want a good example of what our moderators had to put up with? Look at this thread. Bennett goes on and on and on, at one point posting 14 times in a row on his favourite subject before anyone could get a word in edgewise.
I am grateful to you for pointing to that thread, Norbert. We are in agreement that that thread tells the story.
The work you did on preparing the graphic for that thread was wonderful. You brought a learning experience to many people and there are of course many people who say that on the thread. You are also correct that I put up many posts on the thread. And of course that is indeed what I was banned for.
I of course did not put up any posts that were not responses to significant questions or comments by my fellow community members. It is a kindness to respond to questions. It is what responsible community members who put important questions on the table are supposed to do. You are part owner of that forum. You should have thanked me for taking time out of my days to craft those posts and be helpful to the community that meets at the forum you own. You didn’t thank me. You banned me (if you are part owner, you obviously had the power to block the ban and you failed to do so).
Huh?
What’s that about?
Mr. Cheap provides the answer in a post of his above on a different subject:
We have had people come and comment here that we aren’t interested in having as part of the community (angry Realtors and people who are angry at Mike for mentioning pre-payments on mortgages are two notable examples). We make it clear to them they aren’t welcome (often by mocking them), and they usually pick up on this and leave. If driving people like me away *isn’t* your goal (again, it’s perfectly fine if it is), then the way you are currently operating is harming your site.
Passive Investing advocates who are familiar with the academic literature on stock investing know that it has been 28 years now since any sort of certainty could be claimed for the proposition that “timing doesn’t work.” Shiller put out his first research showing that valuations affect long-term returns in 1981 and, if valuations affect long-term returns, long-term timing obviously must work. There has been a mountain of research confirming Shiller’s findings in the time since. So for close to 30 years now it has been every bit as accurate to say that “timing always works” (because long-term timing always works) as it has been to say that “timing never works” (because short-term timing never works).
Our problem is that the Passive Investing advocates never bothered to tell the millions of middle-class investors who have their retirement money in stocks about this critically important finding. 90 percent of today’s investors believe that there really is reason to believe that timing doesn’t work and that therefore staying at the same stock allocation at times of insanely dangerous prices makes sense.
This is what we need to change. We won’t change it by declining to answer the hundreds of perfectly reasonable questions that are always directed to us when we let the cat partly out of the bag. I am going to continue to be as responsive as I can be to people’s questions.
You don’t like that. None of the Passive Investing dogmatists like that. So you do what Mr. Cheap does. You engage in lots of nasty behavior to drive people who know what the academic literature has been saying for close to 30 years off your site.
This is fraud.
I don’t say that you don’t personally believe in Passive Investing. My take is that you do. You personally feel pain over the discovery that Passive does not make sense and you are not able to let in what the historical data says.
That’s your personal thing. You are free to experience whatever psychological pain you want to experience and you are free to advocate Passive Investing for so long as you live and I have no beef with it. When you put forward defamatory posts, I have a beef. When you ban people from a site at which you are pushing reckless and discredited investing strategies because those people have pointed out the dangers in those strategies, I have a beef. When you associate with people like Mel Lindauer and John Greaney, who have employed threats of physical violence to block the large numbers of people who want to be able to talk these matters through from being able to do so, you are engaging in acts of fraud. There is no softer way to put it and still to be talking straight with people.
I didn’t cause Passive Investing to fail. That is just something that happened. I am a reporter and I reported the reality. Lots and lots and lots of people have asked me questions about what I have learned, and I have done what I could to be as responsive as I possibly could be.
I will continue to report the realities as accurately as I possibly can. One of the realities is this fraud business. Any investing board that bans honest posting on 28 years of academic research on how stock investing works is a fraudulent enterprise and as a reporter in this field who happens to know about this reality I have no choice but to report this reality along with all the others.
It pains me to do so. Many of the people who are participating in this fraud are good and smart people who have made many wonderful contributions to our boards and blogs. A good number of them are actually friends of mine. You did good work with that thread-starter and I would like to be able to compliment you for that and let that be it and not have to add that you are working a con on the readers of your forum. But I don’t have that option available to me. The flaws of the Passive Investing model have already caused the greatest loss of middle-class wealth in the history of the United States and they may be bringing us to a global depression in days to come. We have to get the word out to people re this one and that requires that we tell the story straight (If I do not describe the Campaign of Terror to people, how are they possibly going to make sense of the fact that the academic literature has been telling us for 28 years that timing always works and that there are still people today arguing in defense of the Passive model?).
I want to be friends with you, Norbert. I have friends in my personal life who do not agree with my investing views and who have offered the observation that I am “crazy” but who have done so in a warm and friendly way, not in this other way in which you do it. I want to be friends with every one of the Goons. It’s hard for humans to be friends with each other when one of the parties is pointing out that the other is engaging in fraud on an issue that is causing millions of people to lose large amounts of their life savings. So that part of this business must come to an end. Soon. My recommendation is that we work to make that happen by the close of business today.
My practice is to combine charity with honesty. I will offer the hand of friendship on every possible question on which it is possible to do so without crossing the line into dishonesty. The safe withdrawal rate is a mathematical calculation. I have checked the historical data myself. So it is obviously an act of dishonesty for me to say that I believe that the Old School studies are analytically valid. So that’s out. Everything else is in.
You have to work out what you want to do from your side. If you want to say that there are still big-name experts advocating Passive Investing, I cannot say different. If you want to say that you personally believe, I cannot say different. If you want to say that you are not persuaded by the research showing that long-term timing works, I cannot object (I CAN object and MUST object if you say that such research does not exist). There are things that you can do. And there are things that you cannot do. You need to get yourself to the right side of the line.
There are some who say that I am being “mean” by asking you to stop engaging in fraud. I don’t buy it. A true friend tells us when we’ve got something terribly wrong. You’ve got this one terribly, terribly wrong. You’re on the wrong side of the line today and as your friend I implore you to make the moves you need to get to the right side of the line by the close of business today.
You cannot change what the data says, Norbert. No way, no how. That part is in stone. It has nothing to do with me. I reported it, nothing more.
Rob
I have to agree with what Mike said. The Financial Webring Forum is fantastic. So many intelligent, civil debates and discussions. A wealth of knowledge.
I thank Norbert and his peers.
I have to go with nobleea and Mike here — FWF is tops.
I think they are good forums. As for experiences with forums, you get what you pay for. Some of the advice is great, some is in broad generalities and some of it is the usual noise of the internet.
The larger question to me is do you start at a forum for advice on a particular matter? Maybe a topic for another post?
I have to agree with what Mike said. The Financial Webring Forum is fantastic. So many intelligent, civil debates and discussions. A wealth of knowledge.
I second that emotion!
I thank Norbert and his peers.
I thank them all too. And I urge them to lift the Ban on Honest Posting, which has been doing so many so much harm for so long now. Both serious thanks and serious criticism are called for here, in my assessment.
The line that always come to mind for me is from “Hey Jude”:
Take a sad song and make it better.
I have good memories of singing that one to my boys when I would push them on the swing when they were very small. Those innocent and carefree days came to an end when Robert figured out how to talk and was able to ask me kindly to just knock it off.
Rob
As for experiences with forums, you get what you pay for.
Those who are in the process of suffering busted retirements as a result of the Ban on Honest Posting did not get what they paid for, Thicken My Wallet.
They quite understandably believed that the people pushing the Old School studies were shooting straight with them. What would you think if you were a newcomer to a board and you heard 20 people say the Old School studies are fine and not one pointing out that they get all the numbers wildly wrong? How are the people who use these boards and who are naturally thinking that the published posting rules are administered in a reasonable way to know that it is all a con, that there are hundreds of people who have expressed a desire that honest posting be permitted and that they have been intimidated into silence so that those touting the analytically invalid “studies” can continue to do so without being subjected to any effective questioning?
A board that prohibits honest posting on the most important topics before it is fraudulent enterprise. Such a board gives the impression of allowing questioning, which causes people to think there must be something to the claims being put forward. But this is a false impression in cases in which a ban on honest posting is in place.
Why do these boards pretend to permit honest posting if this impression they create doesn’t matter? The people who run these boards very much want the people who come to them to think that they allow honest posting. That’s why the published rules of all of the boards prohibit the tactics that were used to block people from pointing out the errors in the studies.
Why should we not expect the promises of the site owners to protect us from this sort of thing to be honored? The site owners make money from these boards, do they not? If someone made money from you buying a car and relied on dishonesty to trick you, you would see a problem with that, would you not? How is the use of dishonesty to promote discredited retirement studies any different?
This I do not get.
When I plan my retirement, I want honest information. I am fine with there being different sorts of information presented to me. But I want it all to be honest. I don’t see how fraud and defamation and threats of physical violence help anyone. I find those sorts of tactics degrading to every single person either making them or hearing them. I believe that they have no place in discussions of how to invest effectively.
Rob
This is an update.
I have tried three times since yesterday morning to re-register at the Canadian Money Forum. Each time I am told that the e-mail address is taken. That would make sense because I first registered back in April.
So I then ask that the password be sent to me. I am told that an e-mail will be sent (just as I was told that an e-mail would be sent back in April so that I could activate the registration). I never received that e-mail.
They are saying at the Goon Central board that the e-mails are going to a spam file and that thus I am not seeing them. I have registered at many places that required me to receive an e-mail and I received them. My e-mail account is set up so that spam e-mails are identified as spam but so they all arrive in my in box. Nothing is automatically deleted.
I sent an e-mail to the site administrator there this morning asking if he could try to clear things up.
I am happy to post at the forum. I am trying to get registered. I do not know what the problem is. If there is anything that I can do to help Million Dollar Journey figure out what the problem is, I would be grateful if he would let me know and I will do whatever needs to be done. I remain hopeful that it really is just a technical snag and that we will be able to fix it.
Rob
MrCheap,
While I still maintain your original post is a blanket statement not in line with the reality of the vast majority of experiences at dripinvesting.org I have placed the following at our site:
Posters, please remember what it was like when you first came here.
Often, you didn’t know what questions to ask exactly and what links to click.
Yes, sometimes the same question is asked a thousand times even when the previous post has just answered the exact same question and it’s frustrating. It happens. Please roll with it.
You’re experiences are deeper now than they were. Please respect the same situation for the newer newbies. They have to learn too.
I’m reminded of our YM/YWCA where there’s a constant request for more signs. Our Y is now a sea of signs that nobody reads and even at that you have to know where to look.
If you don’t know what “FAQs” or see the link…well!
BTW: If memory serves correct, but don’t quote me, the principal person you had difficulties with was not an old-timer but was relatively new to the site.
Regards,
OB
Rob’s lengthy diatribes also remind me of song lyrics. For instance, this snippet from Al Wilson’s, “The Snake” comes to mind in light of Rob’s urgent quest for entry into the Canadian Money Forum;
“You Knew Damn Well I Was a Snake Before You Took Me in”
Rob’s posts above provide just about all the background information needed to establish how Rob will behave and what value his presence will bring to discussions at any forum which provides him a soapbox. Good luck, Canadian Money Forum. Mr. Bennett has provided you ample detail of what awaits you.
Rob’s posts above provide just about all the background information needed to establish how Rob will behave and what value his presence will bring
Precisely so.
I indicated above that my first post will be at the thread on safe withdrawal rates. I will post a link to The Retirement Risk Evaluator, the only analytically valid SWR calculator on the internet.
If there are no questions about the calculator, I will interpret that as a sign that there is not much interest. That will of course be the end of it in that event.
If there are questions about the calculator, I will respond to the best of my ability to those questions.
If there are defamatory posts or intimidation posts or deception posts, I will explain to the people who congregate there what is going on. If such posts continue, I will request that the site owners do their job and protect the community congregating there for legitimate purposes from the internet predators.
I have been playing it the same way since the first day. No one who permits me to post to a board can say that he was surprised when I posted my honest views on safe withdrawal rates or on Passive Investing or on the need for site owners to take effective action to protect our communities from internet predators. I have a long posting record available for review by anyone who cares to check it out. And the basic themes explored in my posts have been pretty much the same for years now. I aim all the time to develop new insights to incorporate into my stuff. But the basics tend to remain constant over time.
I have always loved the idea of learning new things about investing. And I have always been protective of the communities that have helped me learn so much over the years. I am proud of the work that has been done in the Retire Early and Indexing communities and more recently in the Personal Finance Blogosphere. I offer no apologies whatsoever for the wonderful work that hundreds of us have done together over the course of the past seven years. It demonstrates the power of this exciting communications medium of the future.
Rob
A shameless plug J – check out my Canadian financial forums at http://forums.canadabanks.net
Regards,
Peter
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