[edit July 30 - Toronto garbage strike over? Dave Miller cave-in]
As anyone who lives in Toronto knows – the City of Toronto outside worker are on strike, which of course means…no garbage pickup. This may seem like a big deal but the city has set up some temporary garbage dropoffs so you can still get rid of your garbage fairly easily. The union that is on strike does cover some other functions such as day care, wading pools and a few other things but the garbage issue is the most visible.
My family has quite a bit of garbage accumulated since we forgot to put our garbage out 2 weeks ago which of course was the last pickup before the strike. I wanted to get rid of it asap but I had heard some horror stories of union shenanigans at the Bermondsey transfer station last week so I was worried that the pickets would be out of control at the temp sites as well. However, I heard from one of my favourite readers Guiness416 that she went to the Ted Reeves station on Saturday and had no problem and no wait.
Yesterday, my son and I went to Ted Reeves to get rid of several bags of garbage and it was awesome – no waits, no pickets, no problems. In fact I dare say that it was easier than having to get all my garbage ready for garbage day which isn’t always all that convenient.
A few thoughts:
Smell
The dump didn’t smell too bad, but you could detect it from fairly far away – I feel sorry for the people who live across from the dump since they will probably suffer for the length of the strike.
Union
Where were the picketers? It would piss me off to no end to have to wait for picketers at a site where they don’t normally work but if you are going to go on strike…you have to do the dirty work. They should have been there.
Union II
I’ve been reading all the newspaper articles about the strike and I can’t figure out exactly what the issues are – apparently the bankable sick days are the main issue (you can cash in unused sick days when you retire). This is similar to the UAW “job bank” scam – you really have to wonder who the heck first agreed to such a stupid idea.
I can’t imagine a reasonable union leadership wanting to strike over that one issue – yes, something is being taken from you but it’s such a thick piece of icing on the cake that I would have thought the union would just sheepishly give it up – almost embarrassed that they were ever recipients of such a silly plan.  I’ve talked to a couple of picketers over the past week and unfortunately all I could get from them was that the city was trying to “cut their benefits in half”. Fair enough, I don’t expect every picketer to know every detail of the latest offer but unfortunately they didn’t have a clue. They also weren’t very interested in talking about it (to me at least).
What’s the deal?
Does anyone out there have any inside scoop to this strike? Are you in the union or management? I want to hear your opinion. For everyone else – are you annoyed about the strike? Should they all be fired and just privatize?
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I’m not from TO and definitely NOT a union member. Garbage diposal is an essential service for any civilized city and thus should be performed on a regular basis. Disease, odor, vermin, etc are all associated with a build up of household garbage. They must be regulated back to work or get rid of them. Let’s hope that soon, in the 21st century, unions go extinct. They cost the taxpayers way too much money!!!!
I think our mayor is finding out the hard way what Bob Rae learned- union political support is great when you are in opposition but in power it is a double edged sword.
I would not legislate back to work since, in that case, you have to go to arbitration and arbitration is employee friendly (since they look at the last collective agreement signed- i.e. pre credit crunch- as a basis of comparison and decision making). I would see who blinks first.
I am working on a post on the same issue…
Not from TO. We had a garbage strike last summer (in Vancouver), and it seems kind of similar. Near the beginning, it was difficult to nail down the issues. I think this shows that both sides are still willing to negotiate. When both parties start howling about the details of the contract in the media, things are bad.
As for the bankable sick days, the union leadership almost has to make a big deal out of it. I’m sure there are older members of the TO outside union who have made those banked days a major part of their retirement plans. Like you say, what are the details? Is the employer trying to take away banked days that have already been earned, or are they merely stopping the practice of banking sick time going forward?
In a public sector strike, the employer is also sometimes motivated by cost-savings. The revenues of the city remain the same (taxes), but the costs go way way down during the term of the strike because there are far less staff to pay. BTW garbage collection is NOT essential service.
I read one quote from a striker where he suggested that he would be fine losing the bankable sick days as long as they can keep the ones already accumulated (ie no more of them can be banked).
I think that is perfectly fair since the existing days were earned under their contract so regardless of what you think about them – they should be kept.
it seems like this happens every few years in Toronto. and I hear they have cancelled canada day celebrations, due to the strike.
there are times when a red-neck, right wing province is a good place to live. strikes like this are a great example.
if the city was smart, they’d structure the agreement such that it ends in the fall or winter. if they want to go on strike at the end of the next one, go ahead, everything will be frozen and plowing streets of snow would be considered an essential service.
In Windsor, where we are now into the 12th week of a garbage strike, we are watching Toronto with some interest. Very few people thought it would go on this long, though most of us have found that driving our garbage to a private dump is really not very onerous. It’s much easier for us to hold out than it is for those picking up their weekly $200 in strike pay.
CUPE soon discovered (to their suprise, would be my guess) that most Windsorites do not back the strike, but they are too proud to back down easily at this point. I believe they expected to win the fight in Windsor, giving them a bigger bargaining chip in Toronto. That strategy seems to have backfired rather spectacularly.
With the highest unemployment rate in the country, it’s hard for Windsor’s shrinking tax base to understand the need for fully funded post retirement benefits – and it’s FUTURE workers they are talking about, not current ones. Especially when city employees enjoy higher wages than most privately employed people.
CUPE is learning the hard way that the economic climate is not conducive to winning disputes over non-value added post-retirement benefits, whether they be fully funded health care in Florida, or banked sick days.
They should all be fired and privatize
. Eye, usually a pretty lefty free newspaper, posted this editorial which makes a lot of sense to me: http://www.eyeweekly.com/blog/post/64327
Hey great post you seem to have covered it all here. The garbage is getting the headlines but so far it’s not too inconvenient for me really – I suggest dumping all the packaging you can at the supermarket when you shop. I feel worse for the people who have had to cancel daycare or weddings (!) which must really suck. I’m generally pretty pro-union thanks to being thoroughly indoctrinated by my NYC construction days but like anyone else I don’t know the ins and outs of the issues, not that this stops me from pontificating like everyone else!
Oh my, garbage is so fashionable today (I see Thicken My Wallet is also working on the topic):
http://financialtactics.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-mans-treasure.html
A doc suggests getting rid of Stuff – then we won’t have to deal with all the garbage stuff to the same extent. The unions will still be there, though…
I have a simple rule of when a union is necessary: If the union members make more that the average non-union worker, and they make almost as much or more money than management without the extra responsibility, there should no longer be a need for a union.
Places where unions could be good are Walmart and England at the beginning of the industrial revolution.
Anything critical or essential should not be unionized (good for Reagan to fire all the air traffic controllers, still one of the gutsiest reactions to a strike in history that didn’t involve blood). The 416 branch even has an exemption to the paramedics under its umbrella, so where the other employees are striking, the paramedics are provintially mandated to still provide service.
I do not know all the issues, but on the bankable sick time, let them keep what they already have, perhaps status quo, and grandfather the whole thing and all new hires will be subject to a new deal.
I find it amusing that all these people complain and whine about how good these jobs are, and how they do not receive the same pay or benefits.
Why not quit your job and start pitching garbage? Problem solved. Should I quit my job and go work at Canadian tire so I can get an employee discount? is it fair that THEY get one, and I don’t?
Wether it is sick time cash out, a defined pension plan, or employee discounts, free parking, free travel, concert tickets, etc, it is what it is.
Is it “fair” teachers get all summer off, plus x mas , and spring break? Who cares? I wouldn’t want to be a teacher.
I am in a union, enjoy a defined pension, as well as a sick cash out when I retire. Do I feel guilty? Nope. Am I entitled to it? You bet. It is what it is, and I knew full well the salary and benefits , hours, working conditions when I applied. Everyone who has a problem with that can also apply for a job and do what i do. I enjoy my job, and am happy with my compensation. The choice was mine.
If you are not happy, make another choice.
I do agree , however, that the union blocking the garbage drop offs is a big no no.
Striking, is one thing, but harassing the public and delaying them from just trying to cope the best they can is wrong.
Our nurses in Manitoba do the same thing. Threaten to go on strike, until the gov’t caves in and gives them nice big raises.
While i don’t agree with it, i can always go back to university and get my nursing degree.
No thanks, they can have it.
Brendan: I agree with part of your comment. My brother would often get comments about how cushy his job is, and his response would be: “Why don’t you apply? They’re hiring”. At which point the person would realize that they didn’t have the aptitude, interest or education to do what he does. As you say, instead of complaining about how good someone else has it at their job, switch to it and reap the benefits yourself.
I’d say this is a different situation, because the good people of Toronto are PAYING for their sweet salaries and benefits. It is completely reasonable for people who are paying the bills to complain when they’re too high. The choice whether to work a job is the employees’, the choice of what renumeration to offer is the employers’.
Further, unions often try to get public support (often harassing the public as you thankfully agree is wrong). Once the union drags the public into the discussion, you bet your sweet ass it’s fair for people to say how good they have it (the union is just hoping they can convince the public how BAD they have it, if they actually don’t, they need to be called on that).
I do agree with you, if the union isn’t involving the public and if the public isn’t paying the bills, there’s no point for people to rant about how good other people have it (but in this situation, how would the public even know?)
It’s not so simple as banning unions, everyone! There are problems on both sides. The mere fact that unions exist, I think, anywhere, says a lot about workers’ voices. I recall the Toronto strike from a few years previously. It was a mild hassle, but it reminds us that people are discontent. If they quit their jobs and work elsewhere, it will just be someone else in their position for the next time. My two cents.
Public/private, it really doesn’t matter. If you think you are paying too much in taxes that pay for the services, you can move to another city. Another choice. I think some radio hosts are over paid, and I can always turn the radio off, but I still have to pay via products that I buy. I shop at store A who pays to advertise on said radio station with overpaid host. Advertising costs are passed on to the consumer.
I agree that as a tax payer you have the right to complain about things being too high. But, to dump on the workers is wrong. You feel the contract is too rich? Fine. Who signed it on the gov’t side? Vote him or her out next time.
I dont know about Toronto, but in Winnipeg people complain about taxes, and over paid workers, but they dont even go out and vote. Most winnipeggers cant even name their local school trustee, but complain when school taxes go up to pay for the “over paid teachers who get all summer off”.
Why do we tolerate a welfare class fully capable of working? Why do we pay punks millions of dollars to chase a frozen piece of rubber around a hockey rink?
Again, it is what it is. Pick something you would like to do for a living, and do it.
Not happy? Do something else.
Think a union got a pretty sweet deal? Sign up, or start attending council meetings, and vote a council that will not sign these deals.
This is a real sore spot for me. I put up with the occasional cheap shot about how “good I have it” (incidentally from people earning high salaries, and living in large 3000 sq ft homes, 2 benz’s in the driveway, etc). I am sure that i either directly or indirectly pay for their lifestyle somehow.
I feel this is unfair. I work hard, and feel that i provide a valuable service to the taxpayers I serve.
I think the real issue here is value for your dollar. I dont mind paying taxes, income, or property. It costs money to run a city and people do not work for free. So long as I am getting value for my money then i do not care.
Other than bash the lowly worker, there are other ways to cut costs. Thousands of capable people sit and collect cheques, and pump out child after child, at a huge costs to us all. Where is the outrage?
Another segment of our population that was here first, feels that we owe them, collect, and waste huge amounts of tax dollars, with no efforts being made to become self sufficient. Where is the outrage?
Let’s pick on the worker who also pays taxes, buys stuff, contributes to the economy, and maybe even coaches kids soccer.
Can’t we all just get along?
Brendan;
“Thousands of capable people sit and collect cheques, and pump out child after child, at a huge costs to us all. ”
Your line of thinking suggests that we all join them and reap the benefits.
Same thing :
“Another segment of our population that was here first, feels that we owe them, collect, and waste huge amounts of tax dollars, with no efforts being made to become self sufficient.”
Marry them and get the treaty card benefits.
Unions hold a quasi monopoly due to their collective nature. How hard would it be to replace 10,000 nurses in one month?
Outside workers get 18 BANKABLE days of sick time a year because they extorted it out of the city.
my points exactly. Either sit on welfare yourself or quit complaining. Marry them and get treaty rights, or quit complaining.
Get hired for that high paying union job, or quit complaining.
Unions did not extort sick time cash outs. They were negotiated fair and square in lieu of other wages or benefits.
It is what it is.
Pick something you like to do, and do it. Not happy? Do something else.
Brendan,
I agree that people should vote, especially if they don’t like the choices made for them by the government. They should quit whining and do something constructive. However, to vote politicians out instead of changing contracts is not the solution when the contracts were drawn up by different government officials.
What if the new set has been voted in by taxpayers who didn’t like what the old set negotiated? What if economic circumstances changed and the old contracts are no longer in line with market conditions or the city’s ability to finance their future commitments?
Also, by your line of reasoning, I often wonder why unionized employees would rather strike than seek employment elsewhere. Could it be that non-unionized employment tends to be less favourable when you add up all the pros and cons? If so, when or how does that imbalance get evened out?
I don’t think voting makes much of a difference – has anyone ever run on a platform of reducing government salaries?
The problem is that with unions – once one of them gets something – then they all get it. Pattern bargaining. It’s really up to the current management to fix the problem – not the voters.
What if market conditions change, etc? Thats the whole point of bargaining. City’s ability to pay? If they really cant pay is one thing. On the other hand if they are wasting millions on other things, how can you cry poverty? politics, public opinion, market conditions, wages are always on the move, and changing.
A contract is a contract. Dont like it? Sit down and talk about changing it.
Personally I would not want to strike. My job is unionized. I have no choice. I love what i do, and I would do it for less money, and I would do it for more money. I work week ends, holidays, midnights. I dont care, i love it. I get a pension, and a sick time cash out. If I sisnt get those things I would still be doing my job. I love it that much. I can’t see myself doing anything else. It is what it is.
There are pros and cons to union and non union. Non union you can be compensated by how hard you work. (sometimes). Non union con you get promoted if you sleep with the boss? related to the boss?
Union cons, put in 100% and you get paid the same as a guy who puts in 60% and abuses sick time.
Union pro: we negotiate a defined pension. The downside my RSP contribution is reduced. It is what it is. If I dont like a defined plan i can quit and work elsewhere.
There is nothing to even out. if you feel there is an imbalance go work somewhere that will balance things out for you.
I work hard, love what i do, and feel I give my employers (the tax payer) good value. I enjoy a wage and benefit package that may seem fair to some, too rich to others, and some may wonder how i manage to get by on what i do. It is what it is. I am happy, and shouldnt feel bad , nor should i have to justify my job/pay.
The grass is always greener on the other side, and there is always someone, somewhere who will do ANY job for less money, private or public, union or non union.
Anyway, this is starting to get stupid. I think i will book off work tonight, after all i get paid for it. Maybe I will also get called in for overtime @ DOUBLE time on my days off, plus mileage to drive in for OT.
Hopefully not tomorrow because I was gonna go pick up my free pair of shoes i get every year.
Mike, the private industry works the same way.
Tradsepeople make X amount of money. Calgary starts to pay more. People move to Calgary. Soon no workers left, and wages climb. People move back from Calgary.
Union or non union wages will be comparable across the country give or take.
Actually law works the same way. Precedent set, precedent followed.
Safety standards, same thing. What become the standard in one province, will soon become standard everywhere.
I dont have to book off today because it is my birthday and I get birthdays off with pay, as well as company supplied gum so I always have fresh breath.
Brendan in private industry and non-union environments the pay movements go both ways ie up and down. Government employees rarely lose anything no matter what the economic circumstances are.
Im from TO and Im a union member. Im using a friends computer and a fake name so I feel relatively ’safe’ to say this: the union workers KNOW its mainly for bankable sick days as you call them but we were told to say ‘they’re trying to severely cut our benefits”. The worker who spoke to you was telling you the line. We have NO choice to oppose our union leaders and I’m ashamed to say that most of the members have a ‘gimmie gimmie’ attitude anyway. Its like grandpa simpson on the simpsons whenever they bring up government handouts for the elderly. The union is the same ‘gimmie!” I dont mind telling you this because Im sick of pretending we are fighting for something important. The union bigwigs are plenty angry but they also thankful that millar is such a ‘weakling’. He wants to think he is one of us. Its sad. I’m sure theyll be other union members on here who will curse me out. My reply: go f** yourself –Im tired of pretending we are right in this. We aren’t and you know it “brothers”.
PS the simpsons example is not a swipe at the elderly but for you fellow simpson fans outhere: you know what Im referring to. Grandpa doesnt know what he is fighting for half the time but once he hears ‘benefits’ he just wants to get paid. By the way like the windsor union the union here is too proud to admit we were wrong on this. Many members say that Torontonians are on our side! Hilarious I know. I have my eyes wide open though. They hate our guts right now !
im not coming on here again because I dont want to get into an argument with one of my union ‘brothers’ who Im sure will show up to curse out what i said. Again my response to them is to go F** themselves.
PPS couldn’t resist: you know the 3% increase the fireman etc got. shhhh we just want it because we think we can get it. some of my fellow ‘brothers’ say we are like ‘fireman or police but for sanitation’ nice huh? you see unlike them I dont actually sniff the garbage I through in at the back of the truck. (recap to my fellow union bros: you know what you can go do)
Good points by many posters.
From my point of view I am finding the whinging petty. looking at larger organizations, Statscan has union wages/benefits about 6% more compared to the private sector. Because CND median wages, adjusted for real inflation, have stagnated since the early 1980’s and family indebtedness grows year by year I find it hard to focus on unions as the main problem Canadian middle-class families are confronting. My view is stagnating income is killing the N.A. middle class.
In Philadelphia, its looking more and more like Septa (the transit system) is going to go on strike for a few reasons.
But most of the reasons have to do with a down economy (eg the city saying “We are slashing budgets on schools, closing libraries and fire departments, etc… we can’t afford to give you a raise.”). It makes me really mad at the Septa union, especially because they are using Septa’s surplus to attack them. Uh, I would like them to have a surplus to perform maintenance and cover unexpected expenses with something other than fare hikes.
@Brendan Whoever you are, and wherever you work – you rock! Thanks for jumping in with punchy, good, unexpected arguments. Whether or not I or anyone agreed with you, you sure woke me up.
Brendan, your arguments are absurd, I accept that the Unions have the ability (dare I say obligation) to negotiate whatever deal they can get. But I know of no other negotiation where, when one party doesn’t like the deal on the table it gets to shut the othe party down?! If the Union doesn’t like the deal they are being offered the city should be free to go and hire another group of people that will work for that package. But the idea that a Union can hold a business, or city hostage over terms belongs to a different age.
And despite your generous offer of employment, we can’t all work for the city….
I agree a union should not be able to hold a city/business hostage. My union certainly does not.
But let’s face it, the pendulum is always in motion. Why were there unions in the first place? Poor working conditions, kids working in mines, etc.
There are times when the public sector falls behind the private sector. Then they catch up, sometimes moving ahead. Cat and mouse.
Mark, not everybody can work for the city. But, have you applied? Sometimes it takes a few years, and despite “anybody can do those jobs”, not everybody makes the cut. Either they lack the physical strength, or perhaps they actually have to work harder than they thought they would?
And yes unions have an obligation to negotiate whatever deal they can get. Same goes for the employer. Ditto for the business owner who tries to negotiate the best lease for a warehouse. I am sure you try to negotiate the best deal for you and your family when buying a house, car, or shopping for groceries.
Seriously we all want low taxes, and it is easy to dump on workers. If a sick time cash out is the sore spot, I can see why. You may think it is absurd, but the reality is that it was negotiated fair and square. To take that away from someone without consideration is wrong.
How would you like your employer after years of service to decide not to pay you your pension, or something else you were promised as compensation?
Everybody wants the best deal in life for themselves, but are willing to do it at the expense of others.
Union wants to strike? Fire them I want low taxes. Close the wadding pools, but NOT in my area. I want lower taxes, but corporations should pay more tax, except the company I work for.
Maybe it is sour grapes, and being jealous. Who cares?
Pick a job you like and go to work. Not happy, and want perks that “other” people enjoy? Then find out how to land that job. Don’t dump on the guy who did.
Speaking of negotiations I am gonna suggest double overtime when i have to travel on my days off to get free clothing for my job. Plus maybe mileage reimbursement , and possibly a “stress compensation fee”.
God Torontonians it is just a little bit of garbage. What would you do if you got a big snowfall, call in the army? Oh wait you actually did.
Will the city refund its citizens portion of the the taxes earmarked for
garbage removal? This would only be fair!!!!
A thought….. as there is no contract in place at present why can’t the striking workers be fired and new ones be hired……..
@Mike: Should they all be fired and just privatize?
Nah, I think you’re swinging too far on both ends. Can’t we just “de-unionize” government work? We don’t need to farm it off to 3rd-parties, we just don’t need unions.
We’ve thrown around the idea “essential services”, but frankly, they’re all “essential services”. If we didn’t think the job was essential to the functioning of our community we would have left it to the private sector.
The whole point of government services are that we’ve all kind of agreed that we want these services to be available, for the greater good on a not-for-profit basis. Ideally, we want them at a sustainable but
competitive price.
So we can’t “tyranically” abuse them, we can’t underpay them, we just want them to make a fair living administering our programs in a timely fashion.
So why are the Unions even involved in government work?
Are we really worried that our government workers are going to suffer systemic abuse?
Isn’t a free market a fair way to price jobs?
Personally, I feel for you guys in TO. But really I feel for every Canadian left to suffer the tyranny of government unions. Honestly, we don’t need to fire people, the government workers are hardly the problem. We simply need to get rid of the unions and allow the free market to dictate wages.
Gates – I think “de-unionizing” government workers is a great solution. The only problem is how do you accomplish that without firing most of them?
Just a thought … If Toronto residents are really fed up being held hostage under mounds of garbage, why not simply dump your garbage off in front of those picket lines of striking civil servants? Similarly, why not dump your garbage off at municipal offices, police stations, the mayor’s residence, the residence’s of City councilors, etc.? Wouldn’t that make cleanup easier once the strike is over? (Always think ahead!).
If anything, once opposing sides in this dispute are directly exposed to the rotting refuse they so flagrantly inflict on local citizenry, the smell alone might help remind them that their primary commitment is to the taxpayer!
Personally, and as a rural resident, I have no great love for the hopelessly gridlocked, multi-confused ‘Big Smoke’ or whatever misery its residents so willfully endure. It could be argued that the smell of rotting garbage is a noticeable improvement. It’s all part of the “Manhattanization” experiment you sewer rats were all so fond of.
@Tony: it’s easy to paint a picture of the strikers of amoral turds, but we’re the ones who voted in the system.
Unions really have only one tool, strike.
Normally the employers have an equally powerful tool: close up shop. Unfortunately the government does not really have that option so we end up with these stupid face-offs. (see my post above)
However, I have a difficult time blaming the workers for a situation that we, the taxpayers, have endorsed. If we did not want them to strike, we would have eliminated the unions long ago.
@Russ: I love your good old-fashioned Canadian passive-aggressiveness. I don’t see much of that here in the US
@Mike: I honestly don’t think we need to actually “fire” most of them (short of a legal “fire then re-sign”). Having dealt with quite a bit of government workers they’re already very well-paid and most of them have a healthy body of very domain-specific knowledge. We probably couldn’t replace a lot of them if we wanted to.
One could argue that some workers will get fired by tyrant managers once their Union protection dissolves, but I don’t expect that tyrant managers will feel significantly safer.
Honestly, I’d expect a smart “de-unionization” to have very few short-term effects (other than a bunch of ruffled feathers). Just business as normal for most. I think most of the changes will happen over time as the government slowly cleans out workers that shouldn’t be there and possibly finds a way to attract talent instead of security-seekers.
It would also allow some longer-term input into the standards of living we expect to provide workers.
Right now, city garbage workers are making well above median salary even before good benefits. The tech workers I met were well above market rates. I left a government gig b/c my consultant salary was lower than the people I was responsible for. This was at the provincial level, federal workers were making even more.
I used to work lifeguarding / instructing for the city, had friends doing wading pools. The pay was great in both cases. My wife worked the rec centers and enjoyed her job. Her salary was definitely livable even at entry-level.
On average, every government job I’ve worked (except the consulting) has paid above median/market wages for what they were doing.
I would expect such government jobs to be highly sought-after, but the Unionized structure has really turned people away. Having been there for a while it can definitely be soul-sucking.
I personally hope that removing that Union can entice those people who want to “get stuff done” rather than “put in their 36.25 hours”. That would benefit all of us.
Gates – you talk like removing the union is as easy as putting out the garbage (haha). The only way to remove the union is to completely break it – by firing them.
See Ronald Reagan and the air traffic controllers.
I’m just glad I don’t live in Toronto. Wow
“Either sit on welfare yourself or quit complaining. Marry them and get treaty rights, or quit complaining.”
Brendan, with all due respect, it seems to me that if everyone followed your line of reasoning, the economy as we know it would cease to function. As others have said, taxpayers are paying the bills and have every right to complain when they are not getting value for money.
If I don’t like the prices at store A, I shop at store B, but if only store A exists and provides something I need, I would definitely complain about unreasonable price increases.
@Mike – Brendan in private industry and non-union environments the pay movements go both ways ie up and down. Government employees rarely lose anything no matter what the economic circumstances are.
Excellent point.
I think we need to decouple the ‘union’ issue from the ‘public/private’ issue. It should be a wake-up call that many private companies with unions are suffering more than their non-union competitors. *cough* Stelco *cough* GM *cough*.
In Canada, I heard the stat that public workers make 20% more than private sector workers for equivalent work. 20%!
Victor, I was complaining about welfare people (capable), and a certain “peoples” of Canada . I did not suggest going on welfare, or marrying a treaty person. Whoever quoted this was using my own logic for MY complaints.
I agree with tax payers expecting value for money. I am a taxpayer too.
My point is that you can vote different councillors in office. You can leave your city for lower taxes. You can even move into a smaller house to pay less taxes. Choice.
It’s all about choice.
I am sick of people blaming everyone else . “Fire them all!” “get rid of unions!”
“Cut my salary because customers want lower prices!!”, uhh wait a minute, no that’s not fair!
If you think 20% more is outlandish then quit your job and go work for 20% more. Why dump on someone else?
What is so wrong with wanting the most for ourselves, and our famillies?
We all do.
@Brendan: If you think 20% more is outlandish then quit your job and go work for 20% more.
I don’t think “20% more is outlandish” is really the core of the problem. The core of the problem is that even though they get 20% more, they’re still allowed to strike. And it’s not like we can just hire their competitor and fire them all. There is no competitor. We wiped out all competitors by “socializing” the whole garbage collection process.
So as a taxpayer, I’m not angry that they’re “making more money”, I’m angry that I’m not getting my money’s worth. I’m angry that we’re being held for ransom by our own people.
@Mike: yes, I’m over-simplifying the process of removing the union
But no matter how complex or simple you make the process, it seems pretty clear to me that the unions are costing Canadians lots of tax money and stifling the productivity of government workers.